My sourdough pain de mie sandwich bread is pure white bread in all its glory–and it’s the toast lover’s best friend. Each slice is remarkably soft and light, with the thinnest possible crust, but when toasted, the slice crisps and frizzles in an absolutely ideal fashion. A few slices of this bread toasted within an inch of burning and served with a thick pat of butter on top might just be your new favorite breakfast. But there’s a depth of flavor to be found here, too, that sets it far apart from any supermarket white loaf: mild fermentation flavors and a touch of sweetness, all with the slightest hint of tang.
This style of bread is often called a Pullman Loaf, owing to the use of the Pullman pan, which purportedly was invented to be used in Pullman cars on a train to save space when baking. If you’re a frequent visitor here at The Perfect Loaf, you’ll know that the Pullman pan has pretty much supplanted all my other sandwich bread baking vessels. I love that bread baked in this pan has very straight sides, and that using the lid when baking results in a loaf that has an ultra-thin crust.
Sourdough Pain de Mie Video Walkthrough
Flour Selection
It’s rare for me to bake bread without any whole grain flour, but I make an exception with this recipe. In testing, I played with many flour blends, but in the end, I settled on using only all-purpose flour. By not using any whole grain flour in the dough (and the levain), you end up with bread that has reduced sourness and the lightest and most open interior possible.
Special Pans and Preparation
You can bake this bread in almost any pan that’s the right size, but I love the straight sides and nonstick liner of my USA Pan Pullman Loaf Pan (9″ x 4″ x 4″). If you slide on the cover before baking, you’ll end up with a loaf with four perfectly straight sides.
I’ve created a table of alternate pans with corresponding dough weights for each so that you can use what pan(s) you have and/or experiment with different sizes and shapes of loaves. Feel free to halve the recipe ingredients below to fit one pan, or even double the recipe and split it among 2 to 3 smaller pans.
| Pan (Dimensions in inches) | Total Dough Weight |
| 9 x 4 x 4 (Pullman pan shown in this post) | 800-900g |
| 8.5 x 4.5 x 2.5 (small loaf pan) | 600-700g |
| 9 x 5 x 2.75 (medium loaf pan) | 700-800g |
| 13 x 4 x 4 (large Pullman pan) | 1,100-1,200g |
Regardless of the pan you use, be sure to liberally grease the inside of the pan to ensure that the bread will come out cleanly after baking. Additionally, check out my post on shaping a pan loaf for tips on shaping, pans, and more.
Note: If using a large 13-inch Pullman pan, during shaping divide the dough into three equal-sized balls and shape them tightly. Then, place them into the pan side-by-side. Shaping the dough in this way (similar to how I shape a shokupan) will help prevent any sagging or collapsing while the loaf is baking.
Sourdough Pain de Mie Baking Schedule
This Pullman bread is baked the same day (except for the overnight levain that you make the night before) with a room temperature proof for a mild-flavored result. However, if you’re ok with a slight increase in sourness, feel free to retard the dough overnight by proofing it, covered, in the refrigerator right after shaping.
Sourdough Pain de Mie Formula
Note that this formula has been slightly modified since I first published it in 2019. I wanted to increase the fermentation activity in the dough, so I upped the pre-fermented flour percentage from 7.25% to 8.5%. This change ensures that bulk fermentation will be completed in around 4 hours, as listed in the recipe.
Vitals
| Total Dough Weight | 1,600 grams |
| Pre-fermented Flour | 8.5% |
| Levain percentage in final dough | 19.5% |
| Hydration (water only) | 48.0% |
| Yield | Two 800g loaves |
Total Formula
Desired dough temperature: 78°F (25°C) (see my post on the importance of dough temperature).
| Weight | Ingredient | Baker’s Percentage |
|---|---|---|
| 835g | White flour (11.7% protein; King Arthur All-Purpose Flour) | 100.0% |
| 184g | Whole milk | 22.0% |
| 100g | Unsalted butter | 12.0% |
| 376g | Water 1 (levain and autolyse) | 45.0% |
| 25g | Water 2 (mix) | 3.0% |
| 58g | Honey | 7.0% |
| 15g | Fine sea salt | 1.8% |
| 7g | Ripe sourdough starter, 100% hydration | 0.9% |
Sourdough Pain de Mie Method
1. Levain – 9:00 p.m., night before baking
Mix the following ingredients in a container and leave them covered at a warm temperature, 74-76°F (23-24°C), to ripen overnight.
| Weight | Ingredient | Baker’s Percentage |
|---|---|---|
| 71g | White flour | 100.0% |
| 71g | Water 1 | 100.0% |
| 7g | Ripe sourdough starter, 100% hydration | 10.0% |
2. Autolyse (with levain) – 8:30 a.m.
| Weight | Ingredient |
|---|---|
| 764g | White flour |
| 184g | Whole milk |
| 305g | Water 1 (autolyse) |
| 149g | Ripe levain (from step 1) |
NOTE: I’ve recently updated this recipe to be like my cookbook version, which produces an even better result! One of the changes is to include this autolyse step with included levain.
I use the autolyse technique for this recipe to help reduce the total mixing time required, but I also find it helps aid in the dough’s extensibility.
Warm or cool the autolyse water so that the temperature of the mixed dough meets the final dough temperature (FDT) of 78°F (25°C) for this recipe. Place the flour, milk, water, and ripe levain in the bowl of a stand mixer fitted with the dough hook. Mix on low speed until just incorporated. Cover the bowl and let sit for 30 minutes.
Typically, I do not autolyse with levain added, but with this dough, it helps make mixing the dough easier since there’s a large portion of water in the levain.
3. Mix – 9:00 a.m.
| Weight | Ingredient |
|---|---|
| 100g | Unsalted butter |
| 25g | Water 2 (mix) |
| 58g | Honey |
| 15g | Fine sea salt |
Note: If it’s cold in your kitchen, warm the milk in the microwave or over the stove to help meet the final dough temperature of 78°F (25°C). See my post on how to bake sourdough bread in the winter for tips on encouraging strong fermentation in colder temperatures. Conversely, if it’s starting to warm in your area, use the milk cold from the fridge and see my tips for baking bread in the summer.
First, cut the butter into ½-inch pats. Set them on a plate to warm to room temperature.
Put the honey and salt on top of the dough in autolyse and pour the water over it to help dissolve. Mix the dough on low speed until the salt and water are incorporated, then increase to medium speed and mix, stopping to scrape the sides of the bowl as needed, until the dough comes together and, while still shaggy, starts to cling to the dough hook, about 6 minutes.
Turn the mixer on low speed (STIR on a KitchenAid) and mix for 2 to 4 minutes until the dough gains more strength and begins to cling once again to the dough hook. Next, with the mixer running, add the room temperature butter, one pat at a time, waiting to add each pat until the previous one is fully absorbed. Adding all the butter will take 5 to 8 minutes. In the end, the dough will still be very soft, and it won’t altogether remove from the sides of the bowl. Transfer the dough to a bulk fermentation container and cover.
4. Bulk Fermentation 9:15 a.m. to 1:15 p.m. (4 hours)
At a warm room temperature, 74-76°F (23-24°C), bulk fermentation should take about 4 hours. If your kitchen is cooler, place your bulk container in a small home dough proofer, or extend the bulk fermentation time to give the dough more time to ferment. The dough is ready when it is smooth, puffy, and well-risen.
Give this dough three strengthening sets at 30-minute intervals. The first set starts 30 minutes after the start of bulk fermentation. Give the dough a series of stretches and folds for the first set. Wet your hands, grab one side, and stretch it up and over the dough to the other side. Next, rotate the bowl 180° and perform another stretch and fold (this forms a long rectangle in the bowl). Then, rotate the bowl 90° and do another stretch and fold. Finally, turn the bowl 180° and do one last stretch and fold. The dough should be neatly folded up in the bowl.
Set a timer for 30 minutes, and perform the remaining two sets at 30-minute intervals. Then let the dough rest, covered, for the remainder of bulk fermentation.
5. Divide and Preshape – 1:15 p.m.
At the end of bulk fermentation, the dough will have risen in the bulk fermentation container (perhaps around 40% volume increase), be smooth and elastic, have bubbles on top, and a domed edge where the dough meets the bulk container. If the dough is not showing these signs, give it an additional 15 minutes and check again.
Fill a small bowl with water and place it next to your work surface. Scrape the dough onto a clean counter. Using a bench scraper in your dominant hand and the other hand wet, divide the dough in half. Then, preshape each piece of dough into a moderately tight round.
Let the dough rest, uncovered, for 30 minutes until it has relaxed and is ready to be shaped.
6. Shape – 1:45 p.m.
Grease two 9 x 4 x 4-inch Pullman pans with neutral oil.
I shaped these loaves as shown in my guide to shaping a pan loaf. Lightly flour the work surface and the top of a rested round. Using a bench knife, flip the round over onto the floured work surface. Fold the left and right sides of the dough toward the middle with a slight overlap. Then beginning at the side of the dough farthest from you, begin rolling the dough down to form a tight cylinder. Scoop the dough up with your bench knife and drop it into one of the prepared Pullman pans, seam side down. Repeat with the other piece of dough.
Cover the pans with a large, reusable plastic bag and seal.
7. Proof – 2:00 p.m. to 4:45 p.m.
Be sure to give your dough the time it needs to fully proof; your dough might need more time if your kitchen is cold
At warm room temperature, 74-76°F (23-24°C), this dough should take 2 hours and 45 minutes to 3 hours to fully proof. If your kitchen is cooler, expect it to take longer.
When fully proofed, the dough should rise almost to the rim of the Pullman pan.
8. Bake – 4:45 p.m.
As you can see above, this loaf can take one of two different forms:
- On the left, I didn’t use the lid and the dough rose naturally in the oven. I brushed the top of the dough with a simple egg wash (about 1 teaspoon of whole milk whisked with one egg) before baking. See my guide to topping bread dough for more details.
- On the right, I slid on the snug lid of the pan before baking, and no egg wash was used.
Place an oven rack in the bottom-third of the oven, and preheat the oven to 425°F (220°C).
Place the pan into the oven and bake for 15 minutes. Reduce the oven temperature to 350°F (175°C) and bake for an additional 30 to 35 minutes. If using the lid, the crusts should be a light golden brown; if baking without the lid, the top crust will be a deep golden color. The loaves should have internal temperatures of around 200°F (93°C). If the temperature is lower, slide the covers back on (or not), return the pans to the oven, and bake 5 minutes longer. Then check the internal temperature again.
Remove the pans from the oven, uncover, and let the loaves rest in the pan for 10 minutes. Then, turn the loaves out onto a wire rack and let cool completely, 1 to 2 hours.
This sourdough pain de mie will stay soft and moist for up to a week if the bread is stored properly.
Print
Pain de Mie Sandwich Bread
- Prep Time: 20 hours
- Cook Time: 45 minutes
- Total Time: 20 hours 45 minutes
- Yield: 2 loaves
- Cuisine: American, French
Description
My sourdough pain de mie sandwich bread is pure white bread in all its glory–and it’s the toast lover’s best friend. Each slice is remarkably soft and light, with the thinnest possible crust, but when toasted, the slice crisps and frizzles in an absolutely ideal fashion.
Ingredients
Levain
- 71g white flour (medium-protein white flour or all-purpose flour)
- 71g water
- 7g ripe sourdough starter, 100% hydration
Autolyse
- 764g white flour (medium-protein white flour or all-purpose flour)
- 184g whole milk
- 305g water 1
- 149g ripe levain
Main Dough
- 100g unsalted butter
- 25g water 2
- 58g honey
- 15g fine sea salt
Instructions
- Levain – 9:00 p.m. (overnight)
Mix the levain ingredients in a jar and leave them covered at a warm temperature, 74-76°F (23-24°C), to ripen overnight. - Autolyse – 8:30 a.m.
Warm or cool the autolyse water (see page 138 on how to calculate) so the temperature of the mixed dough meets the DDT for this recipe. Place the flour, milk, water, and ripe levain in the bowl of a stand mixer fitted with the dough hook. Mix on low speed until just incorporated. Cover the bowl and let sit for 30 minutes. - Mix – 9:00 a.m.
Cut the butter into ½-inch pats. Set aside. To the bowl holding the autolyse dough, add the honey, salt, and water. Mix on low speed (STIR on a KitchenAid) for 2 to 3 minutes until the ingredients come together and no dry bits remain. Next, mix on medium speed (2 to 3 on a KitchenAid) for 4 to 5 minutes until the dough smooths and begins to cling slightly to the hook. Turn the mixer on low speed (STIR on a KitchenAid) and mix for 2 to 4 minutes until the dough gains more strength and begins to cling once again to the dough hook. Next, with the mixer running, add the room temperature butter, one pat at a time, waiting to add each pat until the previous one is fully absorbed. Adding all the butter will take 5 to 8 minutes. Transfer the dough to a bulk fermentation container and cover. - Bulk fermentation – 9:15 a.m. to 1:15 p.m. (4 hours)
At a warm room temperature, 74-76°F (23-24°C), bulk fermentation should take about 4 hours. Give the dough 3 sets of stretches and folds at 30-minute intervals where the first set is 30-minutes after bulk fermentation start. - Divide and preshape – 1:15 p.m.
Scrape the dough out of the bulk fermentation container, divide it directly in half, and preshape each half into a taut round. Let rest for 30 to 35 minutes. - Shape – 1:45 p.m.
Shape one round into a tight tube, and place in the pan seam side down. Repeat with the other piece of dough. Cover the pans with a large, reusable plastic bag and seal. - Proof – 2:00 p.m. to 4:45 p.m.
At warm room temperature, 74-76°F (23-24°C), this dough should take 2 hours and 45 minutes to fully proof. If your kitchen is cooler, expect it to take longer. - Bake – 4:45 p.m.
Place an oven rack in the bottom-third of the oven, and preheat the oven to 425°F (220°C).
Place the pan into the oven and bake for 15 minutes. Reduce the oven temperature to 350°F (175°C) and bake for an additional 30 to 35 minutes. The loaves should have internal temperatures of around 204°F (95°C). Remove the pans from the oven, uncover, and let the loaves rest in the pan for 10 minutes. Then, turn the loaves out onto a wire rack and let cool completely, 1 to 2 hours.
Notes
Use the Pullman pan lid for a thinner crust.
Pain de Mie FAQ
Why do Pullman loaf pans have lids?
The lids help ensure that the resulting loaf has the thinnest possible crust.
How do you unmold a loaf made in a Pullman pan?
If you’ve sufficiently greased your pan, the loaf should simply fall right out when you turn the loaf pan over and knock on the bottom. If the bread is stuck at any point on the sides, use a thin plastic spatula (to avoid scratching the pan) to help gently release the sides of the loaf from the pan.
Do I need to grease a Pullman tin?
If your tin does not have a nonstick liner, then yes, you should grease the interior with a neutral-flavored oil. Even if it has a nonstick liner, greasing the interior will ensure that the loaf will come out easily after baking.
Can I mix this dough by hand?
Yes, but adding in the butter can be challenging. I’d follow the same mixing procedure above but knead the dough using slap and fold or folds in the bowl.
Why is my loaf rising erratically and splitting at the top when it’s baked?
This can be a sign of under-proofed dough. Make sure you give the dough sufficient time in bulk fermentation and proof. If your kitchen is cool, your dough might need more fermentation time!
Can I use white sugar instead of honey?
Yes; in fact, that’s actually more traditional than my approach. I would say start with 5% sugar in the dough and adjust up/down to your liking. Note that high percentages of sugar can impede natural fermentation, so the dough might require more time in bulk fermentation and/or proof.
Can I proof this dough overnight in the fridge?
You certainly can, just know that the result might be a bit sourer than what I intended here. Fermentation will continue in the fridge overnight, even though dramatically reduced, and will likely lead to more of that signature tang that you get with natural leavening.
Can I halve this recipe and bake only one loaf?
Yes! Halve all the ingredients in the recipe above (as described in my guide to baker’s percentages) and proceed as indicated.
How much dough goes into a large Pullman loaf pan?
To bake this sourdough Pain de Mie in the large Pullman pan (13” long), I would scale the dough up to 1200g per loaf. When shaping, divide the dough into three equal-sized balls and shape them tightly. Then, place them into the pan side-by-side. Shaping the dough in this way will help prevent any sagging or collapsing while the loaf is baking.
Why are the sides of my Pain de Mie caving in?
Sinking or caving in at the sides can be from a few things. First, try decreasing the dough’s hydration to suit your flour better. I would leave out 20g of water or milk and see the result. Second, let the dough cool in the pan for 5 to 10 minutes before removing it to give it more time to set when it’s out of the oven. Finally, several bakers have reported that the loaf needed to be baked longer to ensure it’s fully baked through and set—try baking 5 to 10 minutes more.
What’s Next?
For a real treat, use this pain de mie, sliced thick with your favorite bread knife, as a base for French toast on the weekend—you won’t regret sacrificing some toast for this treat.
For another super-soft pan loaf, check out my sourdough shokupan (Japanese milk bread) which uses the tangzhong technique to bring even more tenderness to the crust and crumb.
Buon appetito!
Last updated March 13, 2025: The starter weight was incorrectly reported as 8g when it should have been 7g.
702 Comments
My Pullman pan is 14x5x5… I am trying to find correct amount of flour & yeast to get the perfect square loaf… any suggestions?
That’s a big pan! I’m guessing start at around 1300g, then adjust through testing. It always takes a few tries to dial in the perfect dough weight for a new pan!
I am making this updated version for the first time and it’s not going as well for me! I don’t know why, but my dough in the Pullman pan isn’t rising as quickly. It’s almost time to bake and it’s nowhere near the top of the pan as it usually is. So weird.
Very strange! Is it possible the final dough temp was lower than expected or your starter wasn’t quite ripe when it was used? Those are two typical issues I see (and not just with this recipe)!
Hello Maurizio! Fantastic recipe, perfection the first time I made them! Huge hit with my 3 yo and 8 month old! I was trying to search previous comments in case it was already asked but I couldn’t find it. Would I be able to swap out the butter for vegetable oil ? And would I be able to do this recipe without a stand mixer? Because the stand mixer allowed for skipping the autolyse, would that mean that if I mixed by hand, I would allow 1 hr autolyse before incorporating the salt and start the stretch and fold? bulk fermentation and shaping would probably be the same. Thanks so much for your input!
I would say yes, butter for veg oil, but I might be tempted to cut the quantity in half. You can use a stand mixer, or not, either works. Of course, it’s easier with the mixer. Just be sure to develop the dough by hand sufficiently (and an autolyse will help) before adding in the oil. Hope that helps. Let me know how it turns out!
Hi Tina, going to throw in my two cents here, hope it helps! I make this recipe every few weeks to keep a stock of sliced bread in the freezer for my 3 yo. I use oil and granulated sugar in place of butter and honey most of the time. I go “a bit less” on each as butter and honey have water in them but oil and sugar do not. Say like 60-80% of the amounts listed in the recipe. Sorry I don’t have a number, but I haven’t found it to matter too much. I’m also quite sloppy on the technique, just mixing everything together at once (no autolyse) and then proceeding with stretch and folds and proofing. I mix by hand, oil and sugar does make the dough easier to bring together. Some days I only remember to stretch and fold once or twice, it always works out just fine. It’s not quite as delicious as Maurizio’s original recipe, but it’s still pretty good. In my experience the key is to hit the bulk and final proof times, let the flour-water-yeast do the work for you. Happy baking!
I was looking at your timeline graph. I think you mixed up the mix time. You have it a 1:15 p.m. instead of 9:00 a.m.
Oops! Thanks, Mark, will fix.
I made this today and it’s sooo delicious. My loaves turned out kind of dense/flat vs what I was expecting, though. I got very little rise during the bulk fermentation period, but got a decent spring in the oven. I found myself needing to add flour during the initial mixing so that it would come together, so I believe I need to cut the hydration down a bit (it’s quite humid here) – what would you recommend? I’m not sure whether to cut out some water or milk.
I misspoke. I got decent rise and activity during the bulk ferment. After shaping and placing the dough into the pans, they did end up spreading to fill the bottom of the pan, but didn’t rise much beyond that until baked. My assumption was that the dough was just too hydrated, but maybe I should have let it proof longer in the pans. Thoughts?
Hmm. It’s possible the dough was over hydrated, but if it didn’t feel hard to handle or shape then that might not have been the issue. I would say give them a little longer in bulk fermentation!
Hi, I’ve made this bread many times.
Did you change the recipe I have different measurements from March 17 2019
MarionAlioto
Yes, I did! I increased the per fermented flour just a bit. Give it a try, I think you’ll like the changes!
Hi Maurizio Leo! I have been baking this bread for about a year and a half it’s our go to bread loaf for everything, kids lunches, morning toast, etc. Thank you so much! It’s such a wonderful recipe! Question….just noticed the update…..curious why did you change a few things. I would like to know just because I am always trying to learn my way around sourdough. Thanks so much! Seriously I love all your recipes!
Hey, Hannah! So glad you like this bread. Yes, I updated it to be more consistent and repeatable for most bakers. The change isn’t major, but it will ensure the dough sticks to the timeline listed in the recipe (many readers have reported the dough is slow moving, so I helped alleviate those issues). It should work out fantastic for you!
Yes yes! Recipe moved along a little easier so yay changes! Came out beautifully! Thanks!
Delicious soft bread! The recipe is perfect. I’ve made it in my stand mixer, and by hand in a bowl. I may prefer the bowl to squish the butter and incorporate it faster. Making two loaves per week seems like it’ll be a staple. Thanks Maurizio!
So happy to hear you like it, Katie!
Hello! Just a quick report on making an adapted version of this loaf using a tangzhong, following your advice in the post on the same – I cooked 70g of the flour in the milk prior to mixing, and reduced the quantity of butter by a bit less than half. I also melted the butter into the tangzhong at the end, to make it easier to mix by hand with the dough (and to increase the heat of the dough as it was cold in my kitchen!)
I found that this worked extremely well and am very happy with the results. I think because of the tangzhong, the hydration of the dough was very manageable and the dough nice and strong. Bulk proof took 5 hours nearby my radiator (probably around 25C) – final proof 90 minuts. The crumb and crust of the bread were both wonderful, comparable to what you describe and the photos. Thank you for these recipes and the amazing resource that is this site. I am baking bread every day for ten people using your recipes and all are very happy customers :))
That sounds fantastic, Eva! Nice mods there. Yes, this would be a great recipe with tangzhong. Thanks so much for reporting back, it’s something I want to try soon!
Perfect, soft , delicious loaf of bread !!!
Fantastic—enjoy!
Hi, I was wondering why do you almost always give your breads at the start of the baking a boost of heat, what does it do? Does it make the crust? Or is it helping the proofing in any way? Or maybe both? I’m asking because i have another recipe (not yours, which are always perfect) and it rises very very quickly (say 15 minutrs) but then falls while baking, in a low temp (170c) for more than an hour of baking.
Just wanted to share that it definitely did the trick!!! Baked at 220 for 20 min and then lowered to 170 for another hour
Excellent, Rona!
I have a terrible track record with sourdough. No matter what I do I get flat, damp, dense loaves that taste OK (especially toasted) but aren’t, overall, good. I have great success with enriched yeast breads, though, and when I saw this recipe linked on Reddit I decided to make a new starter and give it a try.
Success! Well, kind of. They look great, they taste just fine, the crumb isn’t perfect, but by golly, this is the closest I’ve ever gotten to good starter-raised bread, ever! I’m so excited by this… I might actually try a traditional sourdough boule again. Thanks!
I’ve just baked my first two loaves of Pain de Mie. It looks and smells great except for a large crack running down the side of each loaf. Couple of things I’d really appreciate your feedback on. I’m using organic stoneground flour and I felt the dough wasn’t properly hydrated. I’m not experienced enough yet to have the ‘feel’ but the dough looked quite dry to me. Could that be the problem? It’s summer in New Zealand so kitchen temperature was 25c but I didn’t see a lot of bulk fermentation action. I left it for 6 hours. Maybe still needed more time? I’ll slice it for toast in the morning and that might give me a few more clues! And I’m sure it’s still going to taste terrific! My daughter has been the lockdown baker in our house but she’s left home so I have to take over. I have inherited her starter. Your website is amazing. What an incredible resource you’ve created. Thanks!
Hey, Helen! That doesn’t sound like a recipe of mine!
I’ve been really enjoying this bread with 20% whole einkorn.
I make it with all water and no milk (lactose allergy) and it still comes out wonderful but sometimes wonder how I could increase the richness without dairy. Nut milk doesn’t seem like the right answer. I do up the butter by about 10% to add a little extra fat.
Glad to hear that! Yes, increasing butter will definitely help. You could also try using oil, such as canola, in place of the butter. OR, you could go with a plant based butter, I’ve heard good things but haven’t tried myself.
I love this recipe! It’s my go-to sandwich bread. Have you played with incorporating whole wheat yet? I’m thinking of trying this week and wondering how it went and what you adapted.
So glad to hear that, Rebecca! I’ve done various WW sandwich loaves here, but not a direct sub-in with this loaf. I think it would work well!
I was wondering the same thing! Would the water need to be adjusted when incorporating whole wheat flour?
Hello there! I’m making the Pain de Mie a second time. On my first try, the loaves came out rather flat. It only came up to about two-thirds of the height of the loaf pan after baking. The crumb was dense but still very delicious. I’m just wondering if I should let the dough rise to a certain height on its second rise before baking? Thank you Maurizio. Learnt a lot reading your articles on your site.
Hey there! Yes, I’d let the dough proof all the way to the rim of this pan if you’re not using the lid! It’s likely the dough was under proofed.
Question? Making the Pain de Mie. I’m wondering why there is a discrepancy in the formula, between where it first appears under “Bakers Math” (where total flour = 853g) and where it appears again in the mixing instructions, (where total flour = 774g)? From my reading, the only ingredient equal in both is the final levain, 16.4% and of course flour @ 100%.
From Bakers Math: flour 100%, butter 12%, honey 7%, milk 22%, water 48%, salt 1.8%, levain 16.4%
From Dough mix: flour 100%, butter 12.9%, honey 7.6%, milk 23.8%, water 43.9%, salt 1.9%, levain 16.4%
Thanks for clarifying. Kenny
Kenny, sorry for the late reply! So the Total Formula up top is the total of everything in the recipe, that is the levain + final mix down below. The dough mix will always be lower quantities because some of the water and flour is taken out to make the levain.
Hope that makes sense!
Yes, that does. The formula I’ve been using for basic sourdough (Pain au levain), which I got from George DePasquale of Essential Baking in Seattle when I took a baking class years and years ago, just treats the mature levain as another ingredient when it comes to the total formula. i.e. the water and flour in the levain is not added to the total flour and total water as you do here. It seems less confusing to me that way, but probably because I’m use to that method. Your method is likely the norm, where you account for the flour in the levain (and other flours) and base all other ingredients as a percentage of that “total” flour in the dough.
Thanks for clarifying! BTW My PDM turned out great!!
I made this bread as per your instruction and they came out perfect. Thank you!
So glad to hear that, Amy!
Will you please advise why preheat the oven with no baking stone? isn’t is the baking stone at the bottom of the oven will prevent the bottom of the bread getting burn / dark?
Hey, Shelle! How did the latest try turn out? My feeling is your dough is likely over hydrated. I would try holding back some water next try like you said, and even more if it’s still too slack/wet.
Yes, high 60’s will be pretty chilly and will mean a longer bulk and proof. Try warming the mixing water (and still hold some back to reduce hydration as you did) to increase your final dough temperature. Then, keep the dough warm!
Glad to hear you got improvements! And I’m not sure you can beat a statement like that—perfect toast— 🙂
Happy to have helped and it’s so wonderful to hear my site has been such a great resource. Let me know how future bakes go!
Hopefully it’s come back together by this point! You could try giving it a few more sets of stretches and folds and also preshape it tightly. Perform a second preshape if necessary! The pan will help contain the dough in the end, so you’ll have something no matter what 🙂
Thanks for reporting back! Yes, hydration always requires some measure of adjustment… It all depends on the flour in the kitchen. While it may seem like a semi-disaster, the lessons learned are what you’ll remember months from now—and that will mean more consistent bakes in the future. I’d say you handled things well, and in the end, totally edible! Enjoy 🙂
Okay, I’m a math degenerate! How do I calculate the formula ingredients if I’m using the large Pullman pan to get 1,100-1,200g of dough?
Hi Maurizio,
I’m gonna halve the recipe because I only have one loaf pan. Some of the ingredients’ weight, when halved, have decimals in them, e.g. the flour for the Levain, when halved, it becomes 30,5g (original recipe is 61g). My scale can’t read 0,1g so, should I round it up to 31g or stick to 30g? Also, I live in a hot and humid area, will it affect the hydration (water) that I would need in the Dough Mix?
Hey, Abigail. Great Q. I would round up on all of those to be safe. If it’s very humid/wet where you live, you might need to hold back some of the water in the mix.
Thank you for the speedy reply! According to the recipe, (when halved) the amount of water that I need would be 170g. Your instruction in the Autolyse part said that we have to hold back 25g of water, should I also half that 25g?
Yes, that should do it. The key there is to hold back a little water to avoid over hydrating the dough and to help mixing. Add it in if it feels like the dough can handle it. Let me know how it goes!
Hi Maurizio!
I’ve finally tried the recipe (twice) and getting the hang of it. I used full APF on the first try (bleached, can’t get an unbleached where I come from). I didn’t fully understand Bulk Fermentation back then (fermented it for far too long) and I think I poorly handled (mix) the dough. The loaf didn’t rise as much and I think there must’ve been something wrong with the proofing, but I’ll let you analyze the pictures.
The second try however, yielded a better result. I used all Bread Flour (ran out of APF) and finally got the hang of BF (took me 4h45m), and carefully timed my second proof (I pre-heated my oven to 140C – 150C for about a minute and put it there for the second proof to make the process faster, took me about 1h35m). It rose much more than the first one, although it didn’t have that nice square shape like yours (used a lid). I don’t know why that happened. Also, when I sliced the loaf, the last 2-3 slices have larger holes (I put a link below of the crumbshot)
Both tries still had a fluffy feel (particularly the second one), with crunchy crust and a lovely taste, but quite sour, which I think that’s the starter. I used a 50/50 mix of Rye and APF and only fed it once a week and 2 days (once a day) before the bake time. This week, I’ve been feeding my starter daily (once or twice a day). Gonna do a third try this weekend and gonna try with more starter which I gathered could help with getting a milder taste, which leads me to this questions (sorry if I asked too much):
1. When doubling the starter, does it mean doubling the amount of carryover to make the Levain or doubling the amount of Levain for baking?
2. If it meant doubling the Levain, do I have to reduce the amount of flour and water (for the dough mix), e.g., if I add each 5g for each elements of the Levain (carryover, flour, and water), do I have to reduce 5g each of flour and water in the dough mix?
Thank you so much for this recipe! All of your explanations are very detailed and I appreciate that you took your time to answer all of the questions. When I finally nailed this, I’m eyeing on your Tangzhong bread recipe, already bought the whole wheat flour! Also here are the results:
First try: https://imgur.com/gallery/EuKTm4G
Second try: https://imgur.com/gallery/G4qs6LE
I just got a large Pullman pan with cover and I want to try this recipe. How do I go about checking the internal temperature for doneness, when it has the lid on? Should I just remove the lid toward the end of the bake?
Yes, you can do that. Or just crack the lid, insert the thermometer, and close again if it’s not finished. Be careful opening the lid, definitely use gloves, of course 🙂
Im not getting the volume out of the second proof. My kitchen is cool, ~70 F, and Im adjusting the first bulk to almost 7 hours to get the volume on that. After shaping and 2-3 hours the second rise isn’t very much. for a 13x4x4 I had to adjust to 1500g just to get it to partially touch the lid… the crumb is good, im getting even rise during baking, texture is a little dense but not bad, taste is perfect… I feel like adding a higher percentage/volume of my starter in the levain might give it some more energy for the bulk and still have some left over for the 2nd proof? any ideas?
Yes, you can absolutely take that route, Tyler. Adding a little more levain will help offset the cooler temperatures in your kitchen. Another approach would be to warm the mixing water so the final dough temp is higher, then keep the dough insulated.
I really enjoyed the flavor even if my loaf doesn’t quite look like yours. Question regarding the addition of ingredients. I accidentally added honey at the same time as everything else. How would that affect the final product? Curious as to the science behind the order of additions.
Totally find adding honey in early in this bread! In fact, lately I do the same thing. With ingredients like olive oil, butter, or other fats, I find it best to hold them back until after the gluten in the mix has been developed as they can impede development.
I have made a commercially yeasted Pain de Mie for years and this recipe doesn’t measure up. Pain de Mie has a closed textured crumb and had I let this rise for 3 or 4 hours more I would have ended up with a crumb resembling a good baguette.
Sorry to hear that! Have you tried a heavy hand when preshaping/shaping? Sometimes this dough needs a good degassing during shaping before it’s put into the tin. You’re right, you definitely want a nice closed crumb with this loaf (and that’s what I get!).
I loved this bread – rich and luscious, almost like a brioche. I appreciate your detailed explanations so I understand why I’m doing what I’m doing.
So glad to hear you like this loaf Sharon! Happy to help and enjoy 🙂
Thanks for this nice recipe! Very light crumb! The best Pain de mie I have ever made!
I do not have the cover for my Pullman..and the crust is dark brown. Is it due to the milk in the egg wash?
Should I buy the Pullman cover…expensive! Thank you Maurizio Leo
Glad to hear that, Lynda! Try reducing the oven temperature by 25°F next time, or, keep it as it is for the first half the of bake, then drop it 25°F. Keep an eye in the last 10 min, if it starts to color too soon, drop the temp further and bake until internal temp is as indicated. It’s likely just too hot for too long 🙂
I will keep and eye on it next time. I baked it on the convection mode…The crust is not burnt though but very dark and crumb so delicious! Sourdough taste not too strong. So very happy to have been able to use the large Pullman bread pan (12x4x4) bought a year ago by mistake on the web! My bread was not rising correctly because not enough dough. But after reading your post and details about the Pullman size, I used 1135 grams of the dough to fill it up and there it was, the perfect rising and bread. Thank you for your reply Maurizio!
Would this recipe size work in a 12 x 4.5 x 3.125? or do i need to divide it oddly for a 2nd small pan?
Thanks much for your quick response. I’ve had 3 sourdough failures in the past 2 days (my own fault) so I need to try this ASAP! Tomorrow it is!
Thank you for the comments as always, Branch!
This is the 2nd time I’ve used the recipe. First one will be gone tomorrow so this is the best. Wish I could figure out how to post a pic!
So glad to hear that! Enjoy 🙂
Hi,
I just found you and will start with preparing starter. Maybe I miss this information but: when you take part of starter for making bread, how to continue feeding it when there is less mass inside of jar? To start all over? Thank you for answer.
what does moderate development look like?
Definitely shy of full development (passing the windowpane test). It’s a dough that’s elastic and strong, but still tears apart irregularly.
I LOVE how dark the bread (without the Pullman pan cover) turned out! However, my child is allergic to eggs. Can I still achieve the same top crust if I skip the egg wash? Substitutions? Thanks!
It’ll be hard to get the same level of color without the egg, but you can just use milk or heavy cream to get some!
Ok, will give them a try. Thanks!