My sourdough pain de mie sandwich bread is pure white bread in all its glory–and it’s the toast lover’s best friend. Each slice is remarkably soft and light, with the thinnest possible crust, but when toasted, the slice crisps and frizzles in an absolutely ideal fashion. A few slices of this bread toasted within an inch of burning and served with a thick pat of butter on top might just be your new favorite breakfast. But there’s a depth of flavor to be found here, too, that sets it far apart from any supermarket white loaf: mild fermentation flavors and a touch of sweetness, all with the slightest hint of tang.
This style of bread is often called a Pullman Loaf, owing to the use of the Pullman pan, which purportedly was invented to be used in Pullman cars on a train to save space when baking. If you’re a frequent visitor here at The Perfect Loaf, you’ll know that the Pullman pan has pretty much supplanted all my other sandwich bread baking vessels. I love that bread baked in this pan has very straight sides, and that using the lid when baking results in a loaf that has an ultra-thin crust.
Sourdough Pain de Mie Video Walkthrough
Flour Selection
It’s rare for me to bake bread without any whole grain flour, but I make an exception with this recipe. In testing, I played with many flour blends, but in the end, I settled on using only all-purpose flour. By not using any whole grain flour in the dough (and the levain), you end up with bread that has reduced sourness and the lightest and most open interior possible.
Special Pans and Preparation
You can bake this bread in almost any pan that’s the right size, but I love the straight sides and nonstick liner of my USA Pan Pullman Loaf Pan (9″ x 4″ x 4″). If you slide on the cover before baking, you’ll end up with a loaf with four perfectly straight sides.
I’ve created a table of alternate pans with corresponding dough weights for each so that you can use what pan(s) you have and/or experiment with different sizes and shapes of loaves. Feel free to halve the recipe ingredients below to fit one pan, or even double the recipe and split it among 2 to 3 smaller pans.
| Pan (Dimensions in inches) | Total Dough Weight |
| 9 x 4 x 4 (Pullman pan shown in this post) | 800-900g |
| 8.5 x 4.5 x 2.5 (small loaf pan) | 600-700g |
| 9 x 5 x 2.75 (medium loaf pan) | 700-800g |
| 13 x 4 x 4 (large Pullman pan) | 1,100-1,200g |
Regardless of the pan you use, be sure to liberally grease the inside of the pan to ensure that the bread will come out cleanly after baking. Additionally, check out my post on shaping a pan loaf for tips on shaping, pans, and more.
Note: If using a large 13-inch Pullman pan, during shaping divide the dough into three equal-sized balls and shape them tightly. Then, place them into the pan side-by-side. Shaping the dough in this way (similar to how I shape a shokupan) will help prevent any sagging or collapsing while the loaf is baking.
Sourdough Pain de Mie Baking Schedule
This Pullman bread is baked the same day (except for the overnight levain that you make the night before) with a room temperature proof for a mild-flavored result. However, if you’re ok with a slight increase in sourness, feel free to retard the dough overnight by proofing it, covered, in the refrigerator right after shaping.
Sourdough Pain de Mie Formula
Note that this formula has been slightly modified since I first published it in 2019. I wanted to increase the fermentation activity in the dough, so I upped the pre-fermented flour percentage from 7.25% to 8.5%. This change ensures that bulk fermentation will be completed in around 4 hours, as listed in the recipe.
Vitals
| Total Dough Weight | 1,600 grams |
| Pre-fermented Flour | 8.5% |
| Levain percentage in final dough | 19.5% |
| Hydration (water only) | 48.0% |
| Yield | Two 800g loaves |
Total Formula
Desired dough temperature: 78°F (25°C) (see my post on the importance of dough temperature).
| Weight | Ingredient | Baker’s Percentage |
|---|---|---|
| 835g | White flour (11.7% protein; King Arthur All-Purpose Flour) | 100.0% |
| 184g | Whole milk | 22.0% |
| 100g | Unsalted butter | 12.0% |
| 376g | Water 1 (levain and autolyse) | 45.0% |
| 25g | Water 2 (mix) | 3.0% |
| 58g | Honey | 7.0% |
| 15g | Fine sea salt | 1.8% |
| 7g | Ripe sourdough starter, 100% hydration | 0.9% |
Sourdough Pain de Mie Method
1. Levain – 9:00 p.m., night before baking
Mix the following ingredients in a container and leave them covered at a warm temperature, 74-76°F (23-24°C), to ripen overnight.
| Weight | Ingredient | Baker’s Percentage |
|---|---|---|
| 71g | White flour | 100.0% |
| 71g | Water 1 | 100.0% |
| 7g | Ripe sourdough starter, 100% hydration | 10.0% |
2. Autolyse (with levain) – 8:30 a.m.
| Weight | Ingredient |
|---|---|
| 764g | White flour |
| 184g | Whole milk |
| 305g | Water 1 (autolyse) |
| 149g | Ripe levain (from step 1) |
NOTE: I’ve recently updated this recipe to be like my cookbook version, which produces an even better result! One of the changes is to include this autolyse step with included levain.
I use the autolyse technique for this recipe to help reduce the total mixing time required, but I also find it helps aid in the dough’s extensibility.
Warm or cool the autolyse water so that the temperature of the mixed dough meets the final dough temperature (FDT) of 78°F (25°C) for this recipe. Place the flour, milk, water, and ripe levain in the bowl of a stand mixer fitted with the dough hook. Mix on low speed until just incorporated. Cover the bowl and let sit for 30 minutes.
Typically, I do not autolyse with levain added, but with this dough, it helps make mixing the dough easier since there’s a large portion of water in the levain.
3. Mix – 9:00 a.m.
| Weight | Ingredient |
|---|---|
| 100g | Unsalted butter |
| 25g | Water 2 (mix) |
| 58g | Honey |
| 15g | Fine sea salt |
Note: If it’s cold in your kitchen, warm the milk in the microwave or over the stove to help meet the final dough temperature of 78°F (25°C). See my post on how to bake sourdough bread in the winter for tips on encouraging strong fermentation in colder temperatures. Conversely, if it’s starting to warm in your area, use the milk cold from the fridge and see my tips for baking bread in the summer.
First, cut the butter into ½-inch pats. Set them on a plate to warm to room temperature.
Put the honey and salt on top of the dough in autolyse and pour the water over it to help dissolve. Mix the dough on low speed until the salt and water are incorporated, then increase to medium speed and mix, stopping to scrape the sides of the bowl as needed, until the dough comes together and, while still shaggy, starts to cling to the dough hook, about 6 minutes.
Turn the mixer on low speed (STIR on a KitchenAid) and mix for 2 to 4 minutes until the dough gains more strength and begins to cling once again to the dough hook. Next, with the mixer running, add the room temperature butter, one pat at a time, waiting to add each pat until the previous one is fully absorbed. Adding all the butter will take 5 to 8 minutes. In the end, the dough will still be very soft, and it won’t altogether remove from the sides of the bowl. Transfer the dough to a bulk fermentation container and cover.
4. Bulk Fermentation 9:15 a.m. to 1:15 p.m. (4 hours)
At a warm room temperature, 74-76°F (23-24°C), bulk fermentation should take about 4 hours. If your kitchen is cooler, place your bulk container in a small home dough proofer, or extend the bulk fermentation time to give the dough more time to ferment. The dough is ready when it is smooth, puffy, and well-risen.
Give this dough three strengthening sets at 30-minute intervals. The first set starts 30 minutes after the start of bulk fermentation. Give the dough a series of stretches and folds for the first set. Wet your hands, grab one side, and stretch it up and over the dough to the other side. Next, rotate the bowl 180° and perform another stretch and fold (this forms a long rectangle in the bowl). Then, rotate the bowl 90° and do another stretch and fold. Finally, turn the bowl 180° and do one last stretch and fold. The dough should be neatly folded up in the bowl.
Set a timer for 30 minutes, and perform the remaining two sets at 30-minute intervals. Then let the dough rest, covered, for the remainder of bulk fermentation.
5. Divide and Preshape – 1:15 p.m.
At the end of bulk fermentation, the dough will have risen in the bulk fermentation container (perhaps around 40% volume increase), be smooth and elastic, have bubbles on top, and a domed edge where the dough meets the bulk container. If the dough is not showing these signs, give it an additional 15 minutes and check again.
Fill a small bowl with water and place it next to your work surface. Scrape the dough onto a clean counter. Using a bench scraper in your dominant hand and the other hand wet, divide the dough in half. Then, preshape each piece of dough into a moderately tight round.
Let the dough rest, uncovered, for 30 minutes until it has relaxed and is ready to be shaped.
6. Shape – 1:45 p.m.
Grease two 9 x 4 x 4-inch Pullman pans with neutral oil.
I shaped these loaves as shown in my guide to shaping a pan loaf. Lightly flour the work surface and the top of a rested round. Using a bench knife, flip the round over onto the floured work surface. Fold the left and right sides of the dough toward the middle with a slight overlap. Then beginning at the side of the dough farthest from you, begin rolling the dough down to form a tight cylinder. Scoop the dough up with your bench knife and drop it into one of the prepared Pullman pans, seam side down. Repeat with the other piece of dough.
Cover the pans with a large, reusable plastic bag and seal.
7. Proof – 2:00 p.m. to 4:45 p.m.
Be sure to give your dough the time it needs to fully proof; your dough might need more time if your kitchen is cold
At warm room temperature, 74-76°F (23-24°C), this dough should take 2 hours and 45 minutes to 3 hours to fully proof. If your kitchen is cooler, expect it to take longer.
When fully proofed, the dough should rise almost to the rim of the Pullman pan.
8. Bake – 4:45 p.m.
As you can see above, this loaf can take one of two different forms:
- On the left, I didn’t use the lid and the dough rose naturally in the oven. I brushed the top of the dough with a simple egg wash (about 1 teaspoon of whole milk whisked with one egg) before baking. See my guide to topping bread dough for more details.
- On the right, I slid on the snug lid of the pan before baking, and no egg wash was used.
Place an oven rack in the bottom-third of the oven, and preheat the oven to 425°F (220°C).
Place the pan into the oven and bake for 15 minutes. Reduce the oven temperature to 350°F (175°C) and bake for an additional 30 to 35 minutes. If using the lid, the crusts should be a light golden brown; if baking without the lid, the top crust will be a deep golden color. The loaves should have internal temperatures of around 200°F (93°C). If the temperature is lower, slide the covers back on (or not), return the pans to the oven, and bake 5 minutes longer. Then check the internal temperature again.
Remove the pans from the oven, uncover, and let the loaves rest in the pan for 10 minutes. Then, turn the loaves out onto a wire rack and let cool completely, 1 to 2 hours.
This sourdough pain de mie will stay soft and moist for up to a week if the bread is stored properly.
Print
Pain de Mie Sandwich Bread
- Prep Time: 20 hours
- Cook Time: 45 minutes
- Total Time: 20 hours 45 minutes
- Yield: 2 loaves
- Cuisine: American, French
Description
My sourdough pain de mie sandwich bread is pure white bread in all its glory–and it’s the toast lover’s best friend. Each slice is remarkably soft and light, with the thinnest possible crust, but when toasted, the slice crisps and frizzles in an absolutely ideal fashion.
Ingredients
Levain
- 71g white flour (medium-protein white flour or all-purpose flour)
- 71g water
- 7g ripe sourdough starter, 100% hydration
Autolyse
- 764g white flour (medium-protein white flour or all-purpose flour)
- 184g whole milk
- 305g water 1
- 149g ripe levain
Main Dough
- 100g unsalted butter
- 25g water 2
- 58g honey
- 15g fine sea salt
Instructions
- Levain – 9:00 p.m. (overnight)
Mix the levain ingredients in a jar and leave them covered at a warm temperature, 74-76°F (23-24°C), to ripen overnight. - Autolyse – 8:30 a.m.
Warm or cool the autolyse water (see page 138 on how to calculate) so the temperature of the mixed dough meets the DDT for this recipe. Place the flour, milk, water, and ripe levain in the bowl of a stand mixer fitted with the dough hook. Mix on low speed until just incorporated. Cover the bowl and let sit for 30 minutes. - Mix – 9:00 a.m.
Cut the butter into ½-inch pats. Set aside. To the bowl holding the autolyse dough, add the honey, salt, and water. Mix on low speed (STIR on a KitchenAid) for 2 to 3 minutes until the ingredients come together and no dry bits remain. Next, mix on medium speed (2 to 3 on a KitchenAid) for 4 to 5 minutes until the dough smooths and begins to cling slightly to the hook. Turn the mixer on low speed (STIR on a KitchenAid) and mix for 2 to 4 minutes until the dough gains more strength and begins to cling once again to the dough hook. Next, with the mixer running, add the room temperature butter, one pat at a time, waiting to add each pat until the previous one is fully absorbed. Adding all the butter will take 5 to 8 minutes. Transfer the dough to a bulk fermentation container and cover. - Bulk fermentation – 9:15 a.m. to 1:15 p.m. (4 hours)
At a warm room temperature, 74-76°F (23-24°C), bulk fermentation should take about 4 hours. Give the dough 3 sets of stretches and folds at 30-minute intervals where the first set is 30-minutes after bulk fermentation start. - Divide and preshape – 1:15 p.m.
Scrape the dough out of the bulk fermentation container, divide it directly in half, and preshape each half into a taut round. Let rest for 30 to 35 minutes. - Shape – 1:45 p.m.
Shape one round into a tight tube, and place in the pan seam side down. Repeat with the other piece of dough. Cover the pans with a large, reusable plastic bag and seal. - Proof – 2:00 p.m. to 4:45 p.m.
At warm room temperature, 74-76°F (23-24°C), this dough should take 2 hours and 45 minutes to fully proof. If your kitchen is cooler, expect it to take longer. - Bake – 4:45 p.m.
Place an oven rack in the bottom-third of the oven, and preheat the oven to 425°F (220°C).
Place the pan into the oven and bake for 15 minutes. Reduce the oven temperature to 350°F (175°C) and bake for an additional 30 to 35 minutes. The loaves should have internal temperatures of around 204°F (95°C). Remove the pans from the oven, uncover, and let the loaves rest in the pan for 10 minutes. Then, turn the loaves out onto a wire rack and let cool completely, 1 to 2 hours.
Notes
Use the Pullman pan lid for a thinner crust.
Pain de Mie FAQ
Why do Pullman loaf pans have lids?
The lids help ensure that the resulting loaf has the thinnest possible crust.
How do you unmold a loaf made in a Pullman pan?
If you’ve sufficiently greased your pan, the loaf should simply fall right out when you turn the loaf pan over and knock on the bottom. If the bread is stuck at any point on the sides, use a thin plastic spatula (to avoid scratching the pan) to help gently release the sides of the loaf from the pan.
Do I need to grease a Pullman tin?
If your tin does not have a nonstick liner, then yes, you should grease the interior with a neutral-flavored oil. Even if it has a nonstick liner, greasing the interior will ensure that the loaf will come out easily after baking.
Can I mix this dough by hand?
Yes, but adding in the butter can be challenging. I’d follow the same mixing procedure above but knead the dough using slap and fold or folds in the bowl.
Why is my loaf rising erratically and splitting at the top when it’s baked?
This can be a sign of under-proofed dough. Make sure you give the dough sufficient time in bulk fermentation and proof. If your kitchen is cool, your dough might need more fermentation time!
Can I use white sugar instead of honey?
Yes; in fact, that’s actually more traditional than my approach. I would say start with 5% sugar in the dough and adjust up/down to your liking. Note that high percentages of sugar can impede natural fermentation, so the dough might require more time in bulk fermentation and/or proof.
Can I proof this dough overnight in the fridge?
You certainly can, just know that the result might be a bit sourer than what I intended here. Fermentation will continue in the fridge overnight, even though dramatically reduced, and will likely lead to more of that signature tang that you get with natural leavening.
Can I halve this recipe and bake only one loaf?
Yes! Halve all the ingredients in the recipe above (as described in my guide to baker’s percentages) and proceed as indicated.
How much dough goes into a large Pullman loaf pan?
To bake this sourdough Pain de Mie in the large Pullman pan (13” long), I would scale the dough up to 1200g per loaf. When shaping, divide the dough into three equal-sized balls and shape them tightly. Then, place them into the pan side-by-side. Shaping the dough in this way will help prevent any sagging or collapsing while the loaf is baking.
Why are the sides of my Pain de Mie caving in?
Sinking or caving in at the sides can be from a few things. First, try decreasing the dough’s hydration to suit your flour better. I would leave out 20g of water or milk and see the result. Second, let the dough cool in the pan for 5 to 10 minutes before removing it to give it more time to set when it’s out of the oven. Finally, several bakers have reported that the loaf needed to be baked longer to ensure it’s fully baked through and set—try baking 5 to 10 minutes more.
What’s Next?
For a real treat, use this pain de mie, sliced thick with your favorite bread knife, as a base for French toast on the weekend—you won’t regret sacrificing some toast for this treat.
For another super-soft pan loaf, check out my sourdough shokupan (Japanese milk bread) which uses the tangzhong technique to bring even more tenderness to the crust and crumb.
Buon appetito!
Last updated March 13, 2025: The starter weight was incorrectly reported as 8g when it should have been 7g.
702 Comments
You can but it will lead to a sourer result!
This is almost identical to a recipe I use from King Arthur, and it makes my family’s favourite sandwich bread! The only problem I have with it is that no matter what I do, I end up with a large bubble that separates the top of my loaf from the crust. I’ve tried playing with my proofing time, tighter shaping, nothing seems to help. The bread itself is gorgeously fluffy with a lovely even crumb. Any suggestions?
Usually that bubble means it’s either under or over proofed. If the rest of the crumb is very dense it’s likely under. My guess, though, is it’s either going just a bit over or shaping has sort of made that bubble coalesce near the top… I’d first try dialing back that proof 30m – 1 hr to see if that helps.
Hi, I’ve failed twice making this as I definitely did not understand “moderate gluten development ” – being a newbie! Does that mean that after you add in the butter, you should mix it until it passes the “windowpane test” ? I certainly did not knead till then and the dough just collapsed into this big mess after leaving to bulk proof for 5 hours
Help!!!
My dough is runny! I used % by weight for 13 inch pullman pan. Is there a way to fix this mess?
I am so sad. It has beautiful bubbles. but when I tried to drop it on the surface for shaping.. its all droopy.
Sorry to hear that! It sounds like your dough is most likely over hydrated—your flour likely isn’t able to take on quite a much water, and that’s ok! Try reducing the hydration by 5% and give it another go—the reduced water should bring strength to the dough and you’ll feel it immediately. Once you find a suitable hydration, you can try to push it back up (if desired), but as you do, take note of how the consistency of the dough changes: the dough will start to slacken out as you add more and more water, this means you’ll likely have to mix more upfront or add another set or two of stretch and folds during bulk fermentation.
Generally, with an increased hydration, you need to mix longer to develop the gluten in the dough to sufficiently support the water added, but this only goes so far. At some point, the flour you’re using just isn’t able to take on any more water and you’ll essentially have a weak and slack dough. It’s always best to start conservatively and work your way up with hydration as you feel out your flour. This is typically why I recommend holding back water during mixing, adding it in as the dough handles it.
Try to keep everything else as consistent as possible and let me know how the next attempt goes!
Hello again, this recipe is among my kids’ fave because it make such great PB&Js, toast, and, well, pretty much everything! I just bought a kitchen aid stand mixer and previously had done all my mixing by hand and if you can believe it with a little cuisinart hand mixer (ha!). Anyway, the results with the standmixer weren’t as great. The textures seemed all off, and it didn’t rise as much. What did I do wrong? I followed your recipe to a T and had a strong starter and levain and even used my proofing oven to ensure a nice cozy environment in these crisp winter months… Thanks so much!
You’re right about that, Kiki! The best PG&Js with this bread. It should be ok to use the mixer… I do both, sometimes I go by hand and sometimes with the mixer with this dough. Either way, try to get the dough to the same consistency no matter which you’re using. It can be hard to find that sweet spot!
If you’re using the lid, do you put it on for the rise or only when it goes in the oven?
I slide the lid on just before baking. This way, I can monitor the progress of the dough. Just be sure it doesn’t rise during proof so high that you can’t put the lid on 🙂
If I wanted to do the bulk fermentation in the refrigerator (I think I’m going to have to due to timing issues), should I put it in the fridge after the 3 stretch and folds?
Yes, that’s when I would! After 1.5-2 hours into bulk.
I wasn’t too successful with this. From outside, the loaf looked okay but inside, it had gummy parts. Where did I go wrong? But it tasted good, just the same
It sounds like perhaps your dough was slightly underproofed. This pain de mie dough can be a little sluggish, especially in the winter. Make sure to build your levain from a starter that’s strong and mature (meaning it’s risen to it’s peak height before you take some to use). From there, bulk fermentation is very important! Make sure your bulk fermentation goes sufficiently far, you want the dough to look smooth, it should have risen considerably, and have bubbles here and there — it should look alive. If you tug on the dough a bit it should offer resistance to your tugging, it’ll feel stronger. Give the dough the time it needs in bulk fermentation! If you have to give it another 30m or hour to see these signs, do so. It’s important for this step to go sufficiently far for the dough to have enough fermentation activity before its proof.
I think I needed more time for bulk fermentation. First time I encountered this. Will give it a try again next time. Thank for your useful tips, Maurizio
I’ve been attempting this recipe (adapted to be 1300g for my 13x4x4 loaf pan), but have been having a lot of trouble. My latest attempt did not rise anywhere near enough, and has some dense/gummy spots. Photos linked; where do you suppose this is going awry?
https://imgur.com/Nv2JZto
https://imgur.com/CGpvyoU
It like like your dough was underproofed. Make sure to build your levain from a starter that’s strong and mature (meaning it’s risen to it’s peak height before you take some to use). From there, bulk fermentation is very important! Make sure your bulk fermentation goes sufficiently far, you want the dough to look smooth, it should have risen considerably, and have bubbles here and there — it should look alive. If you tug on the dough a bit it should offer resistance to your tugging, it’ll feel stronger. Give the dough the time it needs in bulk fermentation! If you have to give it another 30m or hour to see these signs, do so. It’s important for this step to go sufficiently far for the dough to have enough fermentation activity before its proof.
Hi Maurizio, I am planning on trying out this loaf this week, however my All Purpose flour is 7.9 g protein, will this still be ok?, if not I have strong bread flour which is 13g (Protein)?
Thank you!
Hey there! It’s hard to say from just the number, but my feeling is, go for a 50/50 blend of each flour to play it safe. On the surface, 7.9% is very low (lower than any flour I’ve used here!).
Hi Maurizio. I love your site and I had some wonderful results following your recipes.
Except…when it comes to strech-and-fold in the bowl. In your video it seems sooo easy. I just can’t drag up the whole mass of dough, it feels sticky and clings to my fingers. So I end up doing it on the floured counter, no other way. I use a stainless steel bowl, does it matter? Should I switch to a ceramic bowl? Grazie mille e Buon Anno (dall’Italia)
🙂
Awesome to hear that, Dalia! Well, the bowl definitely does matter. It’s something I’m always working with, some of my containers are more sticky than others and it can be a pain. What you can do is lightly oil the bowl with a neutral oil to see if that helps, something like grapeseed will work well. I mix that with 50% water when I use my large dough tubs (my ceramic bowl I just wet with water sometimes). That might help the dough release more cleanly, Regarding your hands, definitely wet them before reaching the bowl, and keep them damp as needed.
Hope that helps and Buon Anno!
Hi I have followed your starter recipe and finally have a successful starter so thank you! I am now looking at doing my first loaves of bread with this recipe. You mentioned the pan above and I noticed they are aluminized steel. Is there another loaf bread pan you recommend that doesn’t contain aluminum, like a real cast iron bread loaf pan or any pan that wouldn’t leach aluminum? Thank you!
Excellent, Michelle! The only non-aluminum one I have used is a cast iron Staub loaf pan, but I haven’t used it to bake bread in, just quick breads like sourdough banana bread. I’d imagine it would work well, though! But, you will get a thicker crust, which isn’t a bad thing, just different.
Thank you for your recommendation! Before I sent you this message I had just purchased at Staunton cast iron pan lol. I also had purchased months ago the challenger bread pan not realizing that it was artisan bread. Any recommendations on how I can use this with the loaf pan so I can at lease get my money’s worth out of it. They won’t let me return it so I’ll have to get creative. Thank you!
Staub cast iron pan (auto spell)
Hey, Michelle! You can use it exactly the same way as the Challenger or any other Dutch oven. I use mine from time-to-time and it always works well. Be careful if it doesn’t have a metal handle on the lid, though, you don’t want it to melt if it’s plastic (I don’t think any are).
Made this loaf yesterday… easy and turned out so well! Instructions were great… I only did 1/2 recipe. Thanks for all the instructions on your website
So glad to hear it turned out well for you Christina! Enjoy 🙂
When exactly is bulk fermentation finished? By “risen significantly”, do you mean double in volume?
Hey, Gabriel. There’s no precise and predictable moment, it really depends on how the dough is progressing that day. I don’t like to state “double in size” because going by volume, in my experience, isn’t a good factor for every dough (the strength and consistency of a dough changes based on the formula). Instead, I like to look for a few factors: significant rise (just that it’s risen and looks alive, it should be jiggly and soft), a smoothing of the dough), increased strength (elasticity), and then I take the temperature and time into account as well.
I’m about to bake my first pain de mie loaf! I did the final proof in the fridge overnight for about 16 hours. I took out the dough and it’s cold and stiff. Do I need to warm up the dough? If so, what should be the internal temp of the dough? thanks
You dont have to warm the loaf, you can bake straight from the fridge. If the loaf looks very dense and not well-risen, give it 30m on the counter before baking for additional fermentation time. I hope it turned out well!
Hello maurizio! I read about how to change ingredients % based on the pan, (I have a large Pullman loaf pan) but I didn’t read anything about the time to cook the bread, is there any variation? I will appreciate your answer! Thanks in advance!
Andreas—yes, you’ll likely have to bake longer. Just keep it in the oven until the internal temp reaches the temperature listed in the recipe and you’ll be right on!
Love this recipe Maurizio! I’ve made it a few times now and it’s become a family favorite! Thank you thank you!
So happy to hear that, Todd!
Good Morning Maurizio. First, to let you know I’m back on track with my wonderful starter! I had many pitfalls but I finally got the starter back to where it’s suppose to be. My question for you is this…..Can the recipes be cut in half? I would like to bake one Pain de Mie and one Boule loaf. Would that work or would I lose something in the process??
Happy to hear that, Barbara! Sorry for the late reply. Yes, the recipe can certainly be cut in half, not a problem.
Can I substitute the egg yolk with something else, in case of no lid? The top of the bread is dark dark brown, but the main issue I have is the smell of that burnt egg yolk, we totally dislike it.
Besides that, my first ever pain the mie completely fulfilled my expectations, it’s wonderful!
You could try only using milk, but in my experience it doesn’t quite brown the same. Is the top heat too high in your oven? You could try dropping the temp in your oven by 25°F to see if that helps as well. Glad it turned out well otherwise!
I omitted the egg wash, left the top as is, and it turned out just as good. But will definitely take on your advice about lowering the temperature, the top still gets too dark. Thank you!!
I looked on the baking tools page but am not seeing the plastic proofing bags you mention. Can you provide a link to those please?
Laura, these are the reusable plastic bags I use for proofing, storing, and just about any task that fits inside them 🙂
Thanks!
Dear Sir, I always have problem hitting the right time for final proofing. Either under or over proof and the bread always never got oven spring or collapsed when taken out from oven. Can I use a small jar and cut about 30 gm of the final shape dough and place side by side to the main dough which undergoing final proof. If the small jar show that the dough risen 2x, than I go for baking. Because using finger poke test may not work for me, as my judgement still not good and cannot get the right call each time…sorry being so dumb here. As long as hit 2x double in size/volume, just hit the oven…can I do it this way ? Thank you sir.
Hi,
So I’ve made this a few times now. Really great recipe. Amazing bread. Thank you for sharing it. Question: can I substitute white whole wheat flour (or at least half wheat/AP) for the AP, and, if so, any additional water needed? Thank you 😊
You totally can. I’d say yes, an increase in water would be necessary—it would really depend on your flour!
NEWBY HERE: Why are there 2 versions of your recipe on this page? I have a pan 13x5x5 and want to make this bread but can not determine if I make recipe #1 or #2? Would one of these versions be enough for my pan? Thank You, Mary
I love this bread, and your new lower fat sandwich bread. Even though I use slap and fold because I don’t have a mixer, I think It could also be a good way for new bakers to learn how the dough should feel when it is ready for bulk fermentation. I came across that slap technique many years ago, but had not used it much. It is perfect approach for this wet, buttery mix and truly transforms the dough with 15 minutes of effort.
Thank you so much for your thoughtfully written recipes. I have relied on your page heavily as a novice sourdough baker. I just cut into my loaf and the texture was almost like a ciabatta in loaf form—open and a bit spongy throughout. Really delicious but not quite what I was going for. I’ll continue to tweak, but any idea what I might try working on first? I pushed to bulk to 7 hrs—there were a couple very small bubbles at 3 hrs but no noticeable rise. So perhaps I overdid it? Final proof was about 2 hrs 45 min.
Hard to say! It could be under proofed, but given that lengthy bulk it’s not likely. It could also be under-baked, be sure to bake it out fully, shoot for a 206-208F internal temp, sometimes when baking in a Pullman pan it can be hard to tell when the loaf is fully baked through.
Finally, yes, over proofing is also a concern here with that lengthy bulk and proof. If you see a dense bottom section in this loaf with the top airy, light, and maybe some large holes, you might have been getting close to over proofing. In this case, cut bulk back just a bit to compensate.
Hope that helps, let me know how the next attempt goes!
I’ve tried this twice more, and I *think* I figured out what happened the first time. I had left the stretch and folds to my husband and 5 yr old, and apparently they were forgotten about and done at one hr intervals with an extra thrown in to “make up for it”…
Either way, I think this is my favorite bread. It is tender and light, yet with enough chewy substance and interesting flavor that it’s perfect for both the tiny and big people in our family. Thank you, this is so lovely!
I just wanted to circle back to say thank you because this is my absolute favorite sandwich loaf. I have now made it at least a dozen times. If anyone is having issues similar to mine preciously, I found that it really needed a very lengthy bulk and proof. My house is fairly warm and starter is active, and I’ve tried several of your other recipes and the timing was pretty similar to what I ended up needing, so I’m not sure why this particular recipe always ends up being so sluggish. Maybe the good amount of butter? But when I give it the time it needs, this bread is awesome. For anyone else getting a bit antsy w a long proof—my last loaf needed 8 hrs bulk. Since it took so long, I had to proof in the fridge overnight (12 hrs) and then an additional 4 hrs at room temp.
Hi Maurizio, would it be ok to leave out the honey/sweetening agent? Would it simply result in a slightly more sour-tasting loaf, or would it also impede the rise/proof in any way? Thank you!
Sure, you could do that. Yes, I’d expect a slightly more sour result. When sweeteners are added in a low percentage it tends to increase fermentation activity up to a point, then it begins to hinder. Empirically, I’ve found this to be around 7% for honey and sugar, but I’d have to test this further with this dough to give you a definitive answer — but I’d say omit the honey and see how the dough progresses and adjust accordingly!
I made this with Anson Mills 100% red fife whole wheat flour and, surprisingly, it turned out great. I was skeptical at first as the dough was a little hard to handle (lack of skill on my part, I think) and I don’t think Pain de Mie is usually very whole-wheat-friendly, but it baked up nicely and is such an improvement on the standard 100% whole wheat hearth loaves I normally use for sandwiches. Super soft and delicate – perfect for what one thinks of as traditional ‘sandwich bread’. Thank you for this!
That’s awesome to hear, Arthur! It’s totally fine to take this in your own direction, I love that. Usually it’s 100% white flour to reduce the sourness in the end result, but with careful management it doesn’t mean it’s going to be overly sour — and it might actually be a pleasant surprise, as you’ve found. Enjoy!
Hi Maurizio,
Very excited to try this! Do you ever steam your oven for this loaf? Or is it better without?
If you’re doing an egg wash on top, it’s not necessary!
Hi Maurizio, thanks for the great recipe and fantastic write-up with expected timings. I’ve made this 3 times now, all by hand. I’ve found that if the butter is “cool” but not fridge cold, the effort required to completely mix in the butter is about the correct amount to develop the gluten. The results have been fantastic: light and airy, delicious with a subtle honey fragrance, and little to no tang (depends on how long the bulk and proof takes). It reminds me of the bakery loaves I ate as a child in Taiwan. I do have a couple questions for you: 1. I have not been able to get the uniform crumb that you show in your pictures, I shape a la Hokkaido milk loaf, so I think I’m adequately degassing before proof, but my resulting loaves tend to have a denser section (1/2″) at the bottom and bigger holes towards the top (1″). I’m guessing it’s an under or over proof problem, but I don’t know how to troubleshoot. 2. When baking as prescribed, the crust comes out darker and crustier than I like. How can I adjust the bake to get a lighter crust? Back off the temperature? Bake for shorter time? What is the rationale behind the two temp bake?
Thank you for sharing your breadmaking wisdom! I love your blog. Keep up the great work.
Fantastic to hear that, Jennifer! A few suggestions:
1) Usually larger holes up top can indicate you’re getting close to over proofing, but it can also be shaping issues. I”d try pulling back the proof just a bit to see if that helps. I realize it can be hard to tell with this dough when it’s ready for the oven, but poking it should feel like poking a fluffy marshmallow, but not so it starts to feel weak. If you’re getting areas that are dense and gummy, especially at the bottom and sides, it could be that you’re pushing in the dough too heavily at the bottoms or you have raw flour in the dough when you’re shaping — hard to say!
2) If it’s too dark, lower the heat some for both sections of the bake, perhaps 25°F. The first part of the bake is to encourage oven spring with a higher temp, but then I drop the temperature to ensure the interior is fully baked before the exterior burns. You could do both sections at the same, lower temperature, if you’re finding the crust gets too dark.
Very good point, Meity! Yes, it’s hard to describe this in text, I’ll try to add more wording around that!
Going to try this recipe tomorrow. wish me luck. I just made my sourdough starter about 5-6 days ago. it was from a differnet site, but turned out great, it made great Levain and my 2 sourdough breads came out wonderful. but not much of a sourdough taste, but that is ok also, as I am not much of a sourdough fan. So I am thinking that this Starter or if I decide to use Levain should be perfect for this recipe. I am looking for a great soft sandwich bread. And looking for a way to use all of the starter I made. I dumped so out tonight before I fed it. Going to try Maurizios recipies to use some of it up.
You got this! Have fun with it, too 🙂
Hi thank you for the kind words. Ok so working on the Sourdough Pain De Mie Recipe as we speak. It started doing its Proofing part at 1:45 pm, it is now 5:30 pm and it is just about 1/2 inch above the rim of the pan. Does this seem correct. My pan size is 8.5 x 4.5 and 2.75 tall. so I am not sure what to expect. But after i get off this computer I am going to go put them in the oven before i lose everything. Any feedback is muc appreciated as this kind of baking is so very new to me. thank you
If it’s over the rim it’s likely going to bake up pretty tall and bulge out, but that will likely be ok!
ok well nevermind, they pufffed up and looked really great after baking, now i have to wait to tomorrow to sample the bread. I was in the process of baking sourdough from your recipe and had my pizza stone in the oven, I did not remove it from the oven before I started baking these 2 loves, becasue it was WAY TOO HOT. Is that why they became so very dark after being cooked, not burnt just really dark. But I think your pictures show it being that dark, I think my was darker. I did not put a wash on it before baking as the proofed dough seemed very tender and I was afraid that I was going to lose the proofing if I even touched it. So maybe next time I wont be so afraid. Anyway its done and so far so good, thank you for your excellent instructions.
Thanks as always for these wonderful recipes, Maurizio. I’ve been wondering, did you change the way you write out the recipe percentages and totals? I seem to recall that you used to include Levain as a percentage of the TDF instead of sourdough starter (or at least that is how you have written out some recipes). If so I suppose you changed it because it’s technically a more accurate writing of the recipe. I’ve been having a bit of frustration when Levain is not included as a part of the TDF since I often halve your recipes, which then requires a re-calculation of all the percentages (which I sometimes find to be slightly off compared to yours). Any suggestions for making conversions that don’t require having to go through and calculate percentages for all the ingredients again? (I know I must sound like a lazy baker, but the former way was such a cinch!)
You’re very welcome, Will. In my very old posts I used to list the levain percentage, but I’ve changed this a while back. Nowadays, though, I do include that levain percentage at the footer of the tables (it’s not in this recipe, though). Still working out the best way!
If you’re halving the recipe, just divide everything by 2 — that’s it! Divide the dough mix ingredients and also the levain build ingredients.
Thanks a lot, Maurizio! Did as you said, came out with a really beautiful and tasty loaf. Hadn’t eaten PB&J in years but at least half this loaf was dedicated to them! Thanks as always!
Hi everybody! I’ve veganised this recipe using soya milk and margarine (still Yai no honey tho), and brushed it with soja milk and honey which gave it the same exactly shinny tan 🙂 Mixed all by hand with slap&fold btw, tricky with the margarine for sure, but as I used half bread flour it was due-able.
My problem nevertheless was, same as always: even tho a perfect gluten developed after 4 s&f, still did a 5th, preshaped good it but not insisting too much (afraid of breaking the gluten), but then all ruined when shaping…. The dough was still sticky, or just too sticky as to do the shape (for half of the dough, so 500gr), so I did what I could, let rest 30 min and tried to shape again. It was a bit better second time but still getting sticky and breaking, and it took ages to proof – 7h cold proof (not rise at all), then 4 h on the counter where I felt it was always on the edge of overproofing, as I saw bubbles and the dough didn’t really spring back…
What do you recommend when the shaping doesn’t get the structure it should? Better not to touch it again?
Eventually baked it and it did rise, it’s not as spongy but still an amazing bread for sure 🙂 The crust was quite tough but as the bread chilled it became soft again. I also heard covering with a wet tea cloth while warm also helps to soften the bread, any thoughts?
Thanks so much for the recipe and the help, truly!!
Are you sure there wasn’t too much water or not enough gluten development? Sticky sounds like it was potentially over hydrated, which could make it more difficult to shape. My dough was a little sticky when I put it in the bowl for bulk fermentation, but barely when it was time to shape. Although I have no idea what difference vegan ingredients would make. Have you considered olive or coconut oil instead of butter/margarine? I’ve read good things about those. Also sounds potentially like not enough gluten development if it was breaking. I’ve been having trouble getting enough strength in my dough with just stretches and folds, so I started kneading specifically till it passes the windowpane test after the autolyse and my results are much better. I have to knead longer than most recipes state because I’m not very strong, haha.
Thank you, Maurizio. I just turned two of these out of the oven and am very pleased with the results. I used two 9x4x4 USA pullman loaf pans. I re-formulated to 1626g of dough, aiming for two, 800g loaves and accounting for a little dough loss along the way. My modifications were to substitute whole milk with Bob’s Red Mill Non-Fat Dry Milk Powder, add a touch of rye flour and up the leaven inoculation to 20% keeping the rest of percentages the same using Food Geek’s calculator. The milk powder instructions indicate 3 TBSP to make one cup of milk. Those three TBSB weigh approx 25g. A kitchen scale experiment determined the weight ratio for the milk-powder / water to be roughly 1:9.5.
I used a stand mixer and dough hook for the initial mixing, kneading and incorporating the butter. I then rested, laminated, and performed four coil folds over 2 hours, achieving a supple but strong windowpane. This dough was indeed very sluggish, and I was glad for your warning and all the comments here validating this. I let this bulk 2 hours longer than I normally do for a basic rustic sourdough loaf.
I proofed in the pans overnight in the refrigerator for about 12 hours and baked according to your instructions. I baked these covered. I gathered your recommendation to not using a baking stone is to keep the oven nimble so it can drop from 425F to 375 rather quickly, and I heeded this advice. After reducing to 375F, I took out one loaf at the 10 minute mark, registering an internal temp of 209F. Within a minute it begin to contract a bit on the top and sides. I took out the other loaf after 15 minutes, registering an internal temp of 210F. This one held its shape quite a bit better after cooling.
Here are some photos:
https://imgur.com/gallery/vITXUnK
Notice the loaf on the left is a bit contracted compared to the one on the right.
Those look great, Bob! Nice work on adjusting things. In addition to keeping the oven nimble, I find usually with a pan, the baking steel/stone ends up keeping things too hot and the loaves end up over baked (and sometimes dry) — the pan does all the work for us!
Thanks for sharing your bake and enjoy (assuming you made this again)!
Hello! I’m a beginning sourdough baker. I made this recipe a couple days ago and it turned out great. However, I tried the recipe again with a 24 hour cold-proof, and the bread was very flat. Some differences…I had it at bulk fermentation at a colder temperature (still around the 70s! but the first time I did it it was in the high 70s/low 80s). Then, I proofed it at room temperature for 30 minutes before doing a 18 hour cold proof. I baked it straight out of the fridge, and I got a unevenly risen loaf that did not rise very high… Any idea on what could’ve gone wrong? (also, thank you for all of these recipes! Love this one and the babka, and am testing out the brioche hamburger buns)
Hey there! Sounds like it likely over proofed on you a bit. Try for a shorter final proof and/or skip that 30 minute counter proof.
appreciated, thank you!